来自萨里领导– Exposing 的空中列车 Urban Myth

接下来给萨里领袖的信无疑使《天空火车城市神话》粉碎了它,它比轻轨速度更快,容量更大。 空中列车大厅和主流媒体所忘记的是,这两种模式都是铁路(滚球是非常规铁路),并且遵循相同的运营原则。空中列车’BC Transit和TransLink的声誉已建立,但在低陆平原以外,滚球仍被运输计划者拒绝,只能以加拿大政府主要出资的私人交易出售!尽管市场上已有30多年的历史,但只有七个滚球型系统正在运行。

那里 is no evidence that the 空中列车 light metro or any light metro for that matter is fasterAi??Ai??or has a greater capacity than 轻轨 and is the prime reason why 轻轨列车 made light metro obsolete almost two decades ago.

Light rail capacity rivals 空中列车

发布时间:11月24日,

文章A?ai ?? i ?? Ai ?? TransLinkA?ai ?? i ?? ai ??? s Prendergast提供了分隔建议A?ai ?? i ?? A?包含一个错误,这通常是由对现代轻轨系统了解甚少的人犯的,必须纠正。

的comment: A?ai??i??Ai??At-grade 轻轨列车 typically canA?ai??i??ai???t carry as many people or run as fast as grade-separated 空中列车,A?ai??i??A? is absolutely false.

现代轻轨线路的最大容量是每个方向每小时超过20,000人,甚至某些欧洲的有轨电车或电车系统在高峰时段每小时在部分线路上也能管理每小时20,000人。

空中列车, limited 通过 automatic (driverless) train control can only manage under 15,000 persons per hour and needs a billion dollars or more in upgrades just to match what modern 轻轨 can achieve today.

As for speed, 空中列车A?ai??i??ai???s higher commercial speeds can be, in part, accounted for fewer stations per route kilometre than comparable 轻轨 systems.

的maximum speed for 空中列车 is about 80 km/h, yet in Portland, their MAX 轻轨 line travels at 90 km/h on portions of their line.

MAXA?ai??i??ai???s commercial speed is lower than 空中列车 because it has about twice as many stations per route kilometre than 空中列车 and the 轻轨列车 travels as a streetcar through downtown Portland, with no track reservation or signal priority at intersections.

St. LouisA?ai??i??ai??? 轻轨 system in fact has a higher commercial speed than our 空中列车 light metro.

One would wish the media stop listening to the many 空中列车 urban myths and start dealing with established facts about modern 轻轨列车.

那里 is a good reason only seven 空中列车 type systems have been sold in the past 30 years.

Ai ?? Ai ??http://www.bclocalnews.com/surrey_area/surreyleader/opinion/letters/73010312.html

评论

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  1. 沃伦 说:

    任何时候任何形式的系统都必须停止供汽车和行人通行,这会变慢。那’s just common sense.

    除此之外,任何时候只要您的系统发生人身或其他​​车辆事故的可能性很小,发生事故甚至可能导致死亡只是时间问题。这里’是香港最新的轻轨线,已经发生了事故: http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=91189&sid=26233112&con_type=1

    Zweisystem答复:电车不会停靠汽车和行人;汽车和电车的行人专用站。有轨电车或有轨电车在街上运行,并受到交通流量的影响,但是在许多城市中,有轨电车或电车的运行速度比其他交通速度快10至15公里。降低商业速度的部分原因是,有轨电车的停靠站数量更多,但是更多的停靠站吸引了更多的乘客。

    Certainly streetcars will come to grief with other traffic and they are designed for such happenings. Light Rail operates on a reserved rights-of-way, thus there is a far lower incidence of accident. That being said, streetcars to have accidents with auto traffic, but many of the accidents are fender-bender, etc. 空中列车’的年死亡率约为卡尔加里的两倍’s 轻轨, so when one compares death rates between 空中列车 and light-rail, 空中列车 tends to be the loser.

  2. BCPhil 说:

    的“article”您所引用的内容由您的好朋友Malcolm 约翰ston撰写,并印在当地新闻网站上作为评论。这不是’新闻或事实,甚至相关。

    It’马尔科姆·约翰斯顿(Malcolm 约翰ston)只是说,汤姆·彭德加斯特(Tom Pendergast)现在是西半球最大的公共交通运营商,他是一个错误的人,绝对没有确凿的证据,只是关于波特兰和圣路易斯的轶事。

    您可以’到处走动,让您的朋友写一篇观点,重新讨论您相同的琐碎论点,然后像引用它一样引用它’圣杯证明你是对的,别人是错的。

    它没有’切勿将任何神话散布在任何事物上,除非它表明您绝对没有诚信。您只是在寻找殴打一匹死马的可耻方式。

    Zweisystem回复:当他们的圣杯出现时,滚球大厅诉诸诽谤,我感到很难过“滚球” is seen in a negative light. 的fact is 轻轨列车 or 轻轨 has proven superior in operation to 空中列车, making the proprietary light metro obsolete and it is only in Vancouver does the proprietary metro hold sway. Transit is as fast or as slow as it is designed to be and TransLink designs 轻轨列车 to be slow and capacity constrained. It is the 空中列车 lobby that has no integrity and as Mr. Prendergast stated, “…..TransLink试图消除支持滚球的“文化偏见”。

  3. 约翰 说:

    BC菲尔,

    In the 文章 “Prendergast提供离别建议”
    http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/70647482.html
    Prendergast does NOT say that “At-grade 轻轨列车 typically can’t carry as many people or run as fast as grade-separated 空中列车,”

    If you read the 文章 again, you will see that was the reporter’的补充,而不是Prendergast引用或释义的内容。

    顺便说一句,我几乎不算LRT在圣路易斯的商业速度“anecdote”类别,因为它很容易验证。实际上,与您自己的评论内容不同,我会在“hard evidence” category.

    如果您对Prendergast的报价感兴趣,则可能对以下内容感兴趣:

    [在弗雷泽河谷建设轻轨上]“There’确实没有障碍。“It’s overcoming the cultural embracement of 空中列车 that has existed to date.”

    “TransLink试图切断亲滚球“cultural bias”由于它着手仔细研究快速运输技术,以沿百老汇以西和弗雷泽以南的线路延伸。”

    “到达低陆平原的第一条轻轨将使人们对其潜力有更大的了解。”

  4. 贾斯汀·伯纳德 说:

    这篇文章讲的是事实。 轻轨容量可以大于Skytrain容量。 Skytrain没什么特别的,只是它是一种昂贵且过于复杂的技术。 Skytrain可以充当利基机场的推动者,但作为区域运输系统,它显然已失败。如果您想吸引车手,则需要提供便捷且可及的交通。 Skytrain不像LRT那样方便且可访问。

  5. 夹层 说:

    似乎MTC在纽约梦Pre以求的Predergast’自动化地铁的经验:

    “Tom’当我们将MTA提升到性能和客户服务的新高度时,运行温哥华技术最先进的系统之一的工作将是无价的。”= MTA首席执行官Jay H.Walder

    http://www.mta.info/mta/news/releases/?en=091105-HQ31

    Zweisystem回复:说来可悲汤姆没’t run 空中列车, nor knew much about it, you amply describe the pitfalls of news releases and fact. In fact, Prendergast seemed to understand the pitfalls associated with 空中列车 and our local “滚球 culture.” Prendergast was a heavy-rail metro man and understood that 空中列车 was a poor-man’地铁,花费很多,却收效甚微。

  6. 沃伦 说:

    是的,西雅图的20,000名车手’的LINK系统肯定受到了Skytrain的打击。

    “Cars stop for 轻轨”。我想在您理想的世界中,没有人闯红灯或马路吗?

    尝试为现实做计划。

    Zweisystem回复:您的评论太愚蠢了,我’m posting it to show how silly the 空中列车 lobby is. Seattle’混合轻型地铁/铁路系统是两个世界中最糟糕的;在很少或根本没有乘客的路线上建造的昂贵的轻型地铁。结果是可预测的:高成本和很少的乘客。

    An ideal world world would be no one jumps in front of 空中列车; but they do, making the annual death rate on 空中列车 more than twice as much as Calgary’s 轻轨 system!

    Reality is old chum is that 轻轨 has outsold 空中列车 almost 40 to 1 in the past 30 years.

  7. 理查德 说:

    “Reality is old chum is that 轻轨 has outsold 空中列车 almost 40 to 1 in the past 30 years.”

    将一个公司生产的特定产品的销售与许多公司竞争的广泛产品类别进行比较是荒谬的。甚至不是苹果还是桔子。更糟。它更像是将史密斯奶奶苹果与蔬菜进行比较。当然,所有蔬菜的销售总额都超过史密斯奶奶苹果。这并不意味着史密斯奶奶苹果不好吃,或者人们没有’t like them.

    What would be a reasonable comparison is to compare 轻轨列车 to metro or even better, compare high capacity 轻轨列车 systems to light metro systems. Comparing low volume and capacity 轻轨 systems to 空中列车 is just not valid. Don’别忘了包括哥本哈根系统和同一家公司的其他四个或五个系统。也有VAL,我认为马德里有一个。唐’别忘了加拿大线。一世’我不确定会是多少,但肯定不会是40比1。

    If you want to compare 空中列车 sales to a specific 轻轨 product from one company then fine.

    Not to say there is not a good case for 轻轨 in many situations but your comparison of 轻轨 sales to 空中列车 is not one of them.

    Zweisystem replies: Sorry 理查德, the proprietary light-metro, 空中列车, was marketed in such a way as to replace 轻轨列车 thus it is important to illustrate that it did not. Same is true with the VAL light-metro. 的Canada Line is a heavy-rail metro built very cheaply and, as built, cost over $1.5 billion more than a comparable 轻轨 line, but with much less capacity! It now seems at least $2 billion, more must be spent just to make it achieve what many 轻轨 systems achieve in daily service.

    轻轨 is a generic 过境 mode with all companies products able to operate on the same track, unlike 空中列车, which as a proprietary railway can not share tracks with another light-metro other than a 空中列车. Portland operates LRV’由庞巴迪(Bombardier),西门子(Siemens)和斯柯达(Skoda)制造,以及许多其他轻轨(LRT)生产线同时运营许多制造商的汽车。

    空中列车 has been a marketing failure, get use to it.

  8. 大卫 说:

    I’我曾经在圣路易斯轻轨上骑过,是的,虽然它与Skytrain相比平均时速为49 km / h’时速45 km / h,请记住,它几乎在受保护的ROW中排他地运行(与在West Broadway上不同),利用废弃的铁路隧道穿越市区(听起来很熟悉?),并且车站间距(在原始兰伯特线(Lambert Line))在两个站点之间的平均距离为2.175公里,甚至比世博线更远。一世’我实际上同意您Zwie,当然LRT可以和“skytrain”,但仅在这种情况下。

    http://lrt.daxack.ca/St.Louis/index.html

    Zweisystem答复:但是,轻轨将在百老汇的许多部分上按保留的通行权运营,因此轻轨/电车将比简单的有轨电车类型的运营获得更高的商业价值。商业速度的主要决定因素将是站距和预留R-O-W的组合’s,交叉路口和车站每500至600米的信号优先级将使商业速度达到20 kph至25 kph的范围。如果要在滚球地铁上每公里设置一个车站。此外,与滚球相比,它的商业速度只会稍高一点’车站的停留时间比轻轨高得多’s.

    Dwell times are an important factor in determining commercial speed on a line and 空中列车’车站的停留时间约为轻轨的两到三倍’,但之前的TransLink和BC Transit从未在其商业速度计算中包括停留时间。

    对于城市轻轨/有轨电车/有轨电车的运营,500m至600m的站点间距是最佳选择,站点之间的距离会阻止乘客。

  9. 理查德 说:

    You missed my point. I was merely pointing out the logical fallacy of your statement, “Reality is old chum is that 轻轨 has outsold 空中列车 almost 40 to 1 in the past 30 years.”, in making the case for 轻轨. You would be well advised to make better quality arguments otherwise people will start dismissing everything you say.

    Further to that point, pretty much everyone including myself would agree that 空中列车 would not be appropriate for all the recently opened 轻轨 lines in North America as their ridership is way, way to low to consider 空中列车. Given this, it is not surprising at all that many more 轻轨 systems have been implemented.

    Zweisystem replies: Considering the number of 空中列车 systems sold since the late 1970′s, when 空中列车 was first marketed, the amount of 轻轨列车 systems built, under construction and/or in the later stages of planning amounts to about 40 to 1. This number does not include system extensions. 的fact is, very few people want 空中列车 and even fewer build with it, unless the Canadian Government provides funding, etc.,etc. Only in Vancouver do people dismiss what I say, but the world laughs at the 空中列车 lobby.

  10. 沃伦 说:

    请详细说明从VCC-克拉克,商业百老汇或市政厅站到UBC的轻轨路线,方法是使用“existing ROW”.

    底线是这种类型的线必须完成坡度分隔,并且由于西侧的NIMBY,它将是一条无聊的隧道。您选择的任何系统的成本都差不多。

    我不’不知道您生活在什么样的幻想土地上,但是典型的轻轨,特别是在地面系统中,’不能处理此类管线所需的体积。

    轻轨有’放置在已经有ROW且没有’所需的音量或频率应与弗雷泽(Fraser)以南的区域一样多。

    空中列车 marketing? What are you talking about? Skytrain is simply another system like the London Underground, NYC subway or other moderate speed commuter systems. It happens to eliminate the need for drivers (which I remind you is 70% of the cost of our bus system). It has been somewhat expensive to construct here because we have complicated geography (bridges, tunnels), and it was built during modern times, when the city was already built up, and modern standards and costs of labour and materials come in to play.

    Zweisystem replies: Sadly it is the 空中列车 Lobby who live in a 1950′的幻想之地,但要回答您的问题:

    1)在百老汇上建造轻轨或有轨电车将是中线车道上的有轨电车服务的恢复,当然是按照现代轻轨标准(包括保留的通行权)建造的。

    2)一级轻轨或有轨电车可以处理超过20,000 pphpdd,这足以为世代服务百老汇。

    3) 的automatic 空中列车 actually uses more employees than comparable 轻轨 systems and the issue of drivers is a “稻草人争论” as drivers on 轻轨 are called attendants on 空中列车. Automatic metro operation comes more cost effective to operate than manual systems when ridership exceeds 20,000 to 25,000 pphpd on a 过境 route.

  11. 沃伦 说:

    1)是的,只需沿着西百老汇往下走即可。问题解决了吗?这就是为什么没人认真对待你的原因。

    2)到底有多少辆车?百老汇这样的速度会如何?可能还需要增加99条B线公交车。事实上,轻铁会更糟’绑在一条轨道上,公交车可以’彼此跳过,这样一辆空公交车就可以领先一辆完整的公交车。

    3)另一个可笑的地方。你一定在开玩笑。我乘坐轻轨列车,很少见到服务员。驾驶LRT系统所需的每列火车肯定少于1-2。

    Zweisystem回答:有趣的是,伦敦和巴黎等地方正在城市街道上建设轻轨,而且它们取得了成功。您对这个主题的完全无知正说明问题,并且很难与没有经验的人解释这个问题’t taken the time to read up on the subject. By operating 轻轨/tram down Broadway, connecting to 不列颠哥伦比亚大学, BCIT, and Stanley Park would double present 过境 ridership in 2 to 3 years, something that the 空中列车 lobby is afraid of.

    轻轨火车上有2位司机–如果火车在MU中运行,一位司机最多可运载600名顾客。一辆轻型车辆可以完成与6辆巴士相同的工作,’这是轻轨成功的原因之一。

    As for the attendant issue, with 轻轨 one knows a driver has to be on a train, with 空中列车 the attendants just hide in dark corners. 的operating cost of just the Expo Line is about 60% greater than Calgary’s 轻轨 and Calgary’轻铁载有更多乘客。

    下次发布时,请使用硬数字,而不是随便观察一下。

  12. 大卫 说:

    增加更多的B线公交车比用电车代替它要花费更多。正如茨威指出,一位电车司机最多可搭载6名公交车司机。薪水接近交通系统的70%’从费用上来说,从长远来看,轻轨是更容易承受的。

    温哥华还有其他街道,交通高峰期已接近公共汽车服务的经济极限。如果当前使城市致密化的计划得以实现,那么7-10条街道将有足够的乘客需求,以保证有轨电车代替公共汽车。

    这全都归结为一件事:运营成本。

    政府高层很乐意摆姿势拍照,虽然他们支付了新项目的一小部分资本成本,但他们在开张的那一刻就烦恼了,而地方当局却找到了钱来维持该系统的运转。

  13. BCPhil 说:

    首先,讲出Slander,然后写Libel。第二,我必须写一些不真实和诽谤的东西。我以为你们和马尔科姆·约翰斯顿彼此认识并且是山谷运动的铁路成员,是我的错吗?第三,我认为马尔科姆·约翰斯顿’s opinion doesn’它承担着汤姆·普伦德加斯特(Tom Prendergast)一样重的重量’s.

    But WRT the actual 文章, your response, and Malcolm 约翰ston’s opinion are about a small, almost insignificant generalization 通过 汤姆 Prendergast.

    如果有ISN,谁在乎IF 轻轨每小时可以在每个方向上载更多人’有什么需求吗?马尔科姆·约翰斯顿(Malcolm 约翰ston)甚至在文章中说:“SOME …系统在高峰时段每小时可以管理20,000人”.

    的fact of the mater is that Skytrain DOES carry more people than either of the 2 轻轨 systems brought up directly 通过 约翰ston.

    圣路易斯:
    乘客人数:平均62,000
    长度:75公里
    载客量/公里:838

    波特兰:
    乘车人数:120,000(高)
    长度:84.7km
    载客量/公里:1417

    温哥华:
    乘客人数:354,000
    长度:68.7km
    载客量/公里:5152

    所有城市的地铁面积都差不多,但我们的轻轨似乎骑得更远。 St. Louis的车站/公里数也比Skytrain少,并且亚丛林中的车站之间的距离还远,并且火车在任何时候都不与汽车共享ROW,与Portland Max更低的速度相比,它可以提供较高的服务速度。 。

    Zweisystem replies: I severely doubt that 空中列车 carries 354,000 passengers a day, as it is probably carrying in the region of 250,000 to 290,000 passengers a day. As TransLink does not do, unlike Portland and St. Louis, independent audits of ridership and can claim what they want. TransLink has never divulged how they count ridership and as there are no turnstiles or alike methods for counting passengers, they can claim what they wish.

    从本质上讲,TransLink声称他们在伦敦TUBE线上载客量的一半,而车位的载客量约为五分之一– nice if it were true. Until TransLink introduces independent audit of ridership on 空中列车, any figures from them are “stuff and nonsense”.

    您为什么认为TransLink如此害怕地铁的闸机和登机口,却在计算乘客人数方面非常出色!

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